“When people believe they have power, magic starts to happen”: Katie Kelly on Radical Leadership
Existing models of leadership are increasingly out of date. They rarely take account of the intense challenges facing the public sector and the need to work closely with communities. What should a radical vision of leadership look like for this new era?
As Depute Chief Executive of Scotland’s East Ayrshire council, Katie Kelly was a leading part of some of the most radical power sharing done by any UK council. Now as Chair of New Local she talks to Shaheen Warren from our practice team ahead of our brand-new Radical Leaders event in September. Expect topics from leadership icons to Damascene moments and finding courage through collaboration.
Interview highlights
On maintaining kind and compassionate leadership during permacrisis:
For me, it’s very much about everyone being in this together, whether it’s with workforce or with the communities we serve. I think the idea of a leader as a hero who is all powerful with everything on their shoulders is something that doesn’t really exist. And if it does, it has no value within public service.
I think the idea of a leader as a hero who is all powerful with everything on their shoulders is something that doesn’t really exist.
When I used to do the induction for new employees at my council, I used to say to a room full of people in the council chambers, new social workers, head teachers, cleaners, road workers, “Welcome to Downton Abbey, you have now become a servant.” For me, an equalisation of power, people being in the challenge together and using their strengths and skills to be part of the solution lends itself to kindness and compassion.
On our Radical Leaders overnighter in September – and why you should attend:
I think at this point in our history, we need to bring people together. We need to bring this type of leadership into the light. It shouldn’t be an exception. There’s a movement here. And this event is going to connect that movement further.
Our current structure and systems in public service are constraining this type of leadership. And that’s why it always feels courageous and exhausting and you need resilience.
I want this to be the mainstream. I want this to be the way that leadership is done now. The event is going to be a brilliant opportunity to talk about what’s stopping this happening, where the blockers are and where our collective strengths lie.
Our current structure and systems in public service are constraining this type of leadership. And that’s why it always feels courageous and exhausting and you need resilience. We’ll talk about how this type of leadership might change the system and the structure, because then this type of leadership will thrive.
On the type of leader public services need:
The leader that I think would absolutely thrive within public service is someone that knows themselves, that comes to work in public service and lead in public service, not for power or control or promotion, but actually to serve – the leadership is almost secondary.
On finding the courage to lead:
We talk about courageous leadership, but collaborative leadership and collective leadership are, to me, where you get the strength. That’s where you get the courage. It’s about distributed leadership, all owning the challenges and the opportunities and the successes together. And yes, hard decisions get made, but they don’t get made in isolation.
People would say, we’ll need to work on your weaknesses, Katie. And I would say no, because my weaknesses are somebody else’s strengths
Collective decision making takes longer, but it tends to last. If there’s ownership of decisions and ownership of change and design, it’s sustainable, good change takes place. I’m proposing a very different kind of leadership that’s very horizontal, and it’s based on strengths, not weaknesses. In the old days, people would say, we’ll need to work on your weaknesses, Katie. And I would say no, because my weaknesses are somebody else’s strengths – focus on them because they’re better at that than me.
On leadership icons:
The people that inspire me most are local people who are leading. Margaret Campbell is a woman who lives in Netherthird in Ayrshire, and she was determined to make a change in her community. She’s a kind, considerate, lovely woman who’s greatly respected in the community. She doesn’t have a fancy title of director, but she’s more respected than any chief exec that I’ve ever known.
Some people would say Netherthird is a poor place, it’s deprived. But it’s absolutely abundant, full of amazing people.
She’s resulted in a community garden being run by the local community. The community centre is now owned outright by the community. They’re running a shop. They’re running a community larder. Margaret’s leadership is kind, it’s from behind and she’s always humble. Some people would say Netherthird is a poor place, it’s deprived. But it’s absolutely abundant, full of amazing people. When I go there, I feel inspired. I walk away thinking, gosh, there are people like Margaret all over the UK who care deeply about where they are.
Our job as leaders in public service is to find people like Margaret and to enable them and encourage them because they’ll do better work than anything that a state could impose on a community.
On laying the groundwork for community power in East Ayrshire:
We determined as part of our transformation strategy to really reshape and rethink the relationship that we had with the people we served. We were very brave at the time and went out to communities with no agenda to ask them what they thought of us.
The Damascene moment for me was that people felt really distant from our organisation. A quote that I wrote down and kept above my desk for a long time was: “There’s real time and there’s East Ayrshire time.”
This was a real mirror for our organisation. It was a real provocation – how do we change ourselves to serve properly? What does that look and feel like? And what does it look and feel like to get closer to communities?
We had to really respect what communities wanted, even if it didn’t chime with what the council thought was needed.
It meant that we had to change the shape of ourselves. It meant that we had to really respect what communities wanted, even if it didn’t chime with what the council thought was needed. Because actually it doesn’t matter what the council thinks is needed, and it doesn’t matter what all of those statistics of doom tell us about what’s wrong with places. People want to live as healthily and happily as possible. They want to be connected and they want to feel listened to.
On changing organisational culture:
I saw people who had been in public service leadership roles for years who were used to doing things in a certain hierarchical way. They were promoted vertically and there was a permission culture. Over time I saw more and more people becoming free of that.
When people started to believe that they had that power, magic started to happen
I used to say to whole teams of staff, never mind your job description, as long as it’s not illegal and you’re not doing any harm, do the right thing to serve. When people started to believe that they had that power, magic started to happen because the solutions weren’t prescribed.
Our head of housing and communities at the time was known as Dr No. He said no to everything because it wasn’t within the strategy or within the budget. He changed dramatically because he realised if he opened his arms and listened to people, he could find a way to say yes. And that really changed his whole service and resulted in him being promoted into a leadership role that he never even had an ambition for.
On local government leaders moving into the newly elected national government:
People moving from local government into national government is really interesting because they know what it’s like to be on the ground. I’m hoping that they bring that passion for place with them, that really strong message that when decisions are taken very locally, they tend to be more sustainable and have a bigger impact.
Georgia Gould spoke at Stronger Things 2024. At that point, she was the leader of Camden Council and she is now an MP, but she was speaking eloquently about community power and how that has become so important in her leadership, to be local and to serve local people, to engage deeply with communities and how that really changed how her council ran things. I’m hoping that that becomes part of the lifeblood of this new government.
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